….flies you into buildings, and tries to force you to live according to its particular values; and wants to teach all children to deny any aspect of science that it believes, rightly or wrongly, undercuts its mythology; and asserts that its morality applies to all; and wants women subservient to men; etc, etc, etc (See Osama Bin Laden, Taliban, Fundamentalist Christians, etc)
Except, Mike, that Stalin and Zedong didn’t kill in the name of religion…They didn’t kill because they were Atheist, they killed because they were dickheads… Although I think that can be applied to any religion or anti-religion, it’s the people that take it all way too seriously that are the ones killing, whereas the ones that merely believe it and follow it aren’t bad people…I’m not a fan of religion, but at the same time, I don’t hate it, I think it does great things for many people, and if you want to believe in a god of some sort go right ahead, it’s just the insane people who kill others that I don’t like, whether they are atheist, christian, islamic, doesn’t matter, they are all bastards for killing anyone.
And that was quite a big run-on sentence, but whatever, haha.
There’are haters among Christians & Muslims & Jews & probably Buddhists too, and everybody loves to point them out. But there also seem to be a helluva awful lot of haters among atheists & agnostics, and anyone else not covered by any of the above labels as well.
Whether a practitioner of a religion of some kind or no religion of any kind, why do so many people think that “if you don’t believe exactly like I do, you’re a [insert insult here] and I will mock you forever until I’ve convinced you through endless personal taunts and abuse?”
“But there also seem to be a helluva awful lot of haters among atheists & agnostics”
I don’t find this to be the case at all. In my experience, such folks are much more likely to be more thoughtful, more even-tempered, and certainly more tolerant than fundamentalists of any stripe.
I find it to be the case all the time. I challenge you to go find posts and comments on this site expressing religious hate, and posts and comments expressing the opposite. And also note which group is on the offense and which is on the defense. Which group provokes these debates?
Kylie, the intent of my initial remark was to point out what you mentioned: that insane/evil people are the problem, not necessarily the underlying doctrine (religious or not).
Stalin and Mao didn’t kill for religion but they did kill for a specific set of beliefs that they think should govern life (which is essentially the same as religion). Plus, religious leaders were specifically targeted by Stalin and Mao because they believed religion to be direct opposition to their end goals (sort of like how radical muslim terrorists view westerners as infidels). Heck, in practice, communist regimes look an awful lot like a religious cult: reverent authority figure that everyone is to idolize, rigid set of clearly defined life rules that are to be followed or face punishment, symbolism and pageantry to remind everyone of who/what is important, indoctrination practices and propaganda to be sure everyone is loyal to the cause from the beginning.
—
“I don’t find this to be the case at all. In my experience, such folks are much more likely to be more thoughtful, more even-tempered, and certainly more tolerant than fundamentalists of any stripe.”
Fundamentalism has nothing to do with temper or tolerance. Tibetan Monks and the Amish are great examples of super-fundamentalist religious groups, and they are about as tolerant and even-tempered as you can find in the world. Its not fair to single out examples of evil carried out by a fringe minority for one group yet ignore the same evil acts of men carried out by the opposing view.
Is it just religious Conservatives you dislike, or does it extend to the Kennedys, Rev Jackson, Rev Sharpton, the Founding Fathers, Rev MLK, and member(?) of the UCC President O (although he’s the 1st president in US history to not attend church during his first year in office…maybe he got your note?)
Dateline Akron…
Mennonites blow up pizza shop with suicide bomb belts. Roman Catholics in the streets burning effigies of the president, holding placards stating that Jews must die…
Oh, nevermind. The elephant in the room has just informed me that I might offend somebody.
I didn’t say anything at all about Christians as a group, DJ. So your whole argument is based on a misreading (willful?) of my comments. But observe the hatred on the faces and lips of fundamentalist “Christians” who enter the public square and seek to impose their values on everyone and it’s clear they don’t know, or more probably don’t care about the teachings of the man the religion they claim to follow was named for. Jesus would forgive them, but he would disown their behavior. And yes, absolutely, people who, in thinking for themselves, have come to understand that religion grew out of fear and ignorance and owes its continued power to blind faith and the manipulation of religions’ followers by religious leaders who enjoy that power (see Catholic church), and that there is zero reliable evidence of any metaphysical realm, do tend to be thoughtful, even-tempered, and tolerant.
And Mike, the term “fundamentalism” has come to mean, maybe always has meant, reactionary religious folks with an “us vs. them” attitude. Here’s a good summary: http://vridar.wordpress.com/2007/06/29/10-characteristics-of-fundamentalism/ I have great respect for the Amish, Tibetan monks, or any group whose whole lives are immersed in their religion. But they don’t fall into the category of religious fundamentalists.
Ironic since these days its the secular groups that are pushing for NASA budget cuts. Oh well, guess everything is cyclical.
….flies you into buildings, and tries to force you to live according to its particular values; and wants to teach all children to deny any aspect of science that it believes, rightly or wrongly, undercuts its mythology; and asserts that its morality applies to all; and wants women subservient to men; etc, etc, etc (See Osama Bin Laden, Taliban, Fundamentalist Christians, etc)
Its funny because the the extreme examples of anti-religious politics are so much better!
Signed,
The 100+ million murdered by atheist leaders Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong
Except, Mike, that Stalin and Zedong didn’t kill in the name of religion…They didn’t kill because they were Atheist, they killed because they were dickheads… Although I think that can be applied to any religion or anti-religion, it’s the people that take it all way too seriously that are the ones killing, whereas the ones that merely believe it and follow it aren’t bad people…I’m not a fan of religion, but at the same time, I don’t hate it, I think it does great things for many people, and if you want to believe in a god of some sort go right ahead, it’s just the insane people who kill others that I don’t like, whether they are atheist, christian, islamic, doesn’t matter, they are all bastards for killing anyone.
And that was quite a big run-on sentence, but whatever, haha.
There’are haters among Christians & Muslims & Jews & probably Buddhists too, and everybody loves to point them out. But there also seem to be a helluva awful lot of haters among atheists & agnostics, and anyone else not covered by any of the above labels as well.
Whether a practitioner of a religion of some kind or no religion of any kind, why do so many people think that “if you don’t believe exactly like I do, you’re a [insert insult here] and I will mock you forever until I’ve convinced you through endless personal taunts and abuse?”
Great points, Kylie.
I seriously lolled at this one. I feel guilty now.
As an avid pilot and a High school aviation teacher this is going to be my new bumper sticker!
“But there also seem to be a helluva awful lot of haters among atheists & agnostics”
I don’t find this to be the case at all. In my experience, such folks are much more likely to be more thoughtful, more even-tempered, and certainly more tolerant than fundamentalists of any stripe.
I find it to be the case all the time. I challenge you to go find posts and comments on this site expressing religious hate, and posts and comments expressing the opposite. And also note which group is on the offense and which is on the defense. Which group provokes these debates?
Ahhh, moral relativism.
Actually, Islam flies you into buildings. I don’t recall any Lutherans or Buddhists blowing anything up recently.
Kylie, the intent of my initial remark was to point out what you mentioned: that insane/evil people are the problem, not necessarily the underlying doctrine (religious or not).
Stalin and Mao didn’t kill for religion but they did kill for a specific set of beliefs that they think should govern life (which is essentially the same as religion). Plus, religious leaders were specifically targeted by Stalin and Mao because they believed religion to be direct opposition to their end goals (sort of like how radical muslim terrorists view westerners as infidels). Heck, in practice, communist regimes look an awful lot like a religious cult: reverent authority figure that everyone is to idolize, rigid set of clearly defined life rules that are to be followed or face punishment, symbolism and pageantry to remind everyone of who/what is important, indoctrination practices and propaganda to be sure everyone is loyal to the cause from the beginning.
—
“I don’t find this to be the case at all. In my experience, such folks are much more likely to be more thoughtful, more even-tempered, and certainly more tolerant than fundamentalists of any stripe.”
Fundamentalism has nothing to do with temper or tolerance. Tibetan Monks and the Amish are great examples of super-fundamentalist religious groups, and they are about as tolerant and even-tempered as you can find in the world. Its not fair to single out examples of evil carried out by a fringe minority for one group yet ignore the same evil acts of men carried out by the opposing view.
Acorvid – Have you expressed those thoughts to Jimmy Carter ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter#Faith.2C_family.2C_and_community ) or to Nancy Pelosi? She must not have gotten your email, as she was praying for passage of legislation in a televised news confr a few days ago.
Is it just religious Conservatives you dislike, or does it extend to the Kennedys, Rev Jackson, Rev Sharpton, the Founding Fathers, Rev MLK, and member(?) of the UCC President O (although he’s the 1st president in US history to not attend church during his first year in office…maybe he got your note?)
LOL @ “certainly more tolerant” !!
BREAKING NEWS……
Dateline Akron…
Mennonites blow up pizza shop with suicide bomb belts. Roman Catholics in the streets burning effigies of the president, holding placards stating that Jews must die…
Oh, nevermind. The elephant in the room has just informed me that I might offend somebody.
I didn’t say anything at all about Christians as a group, DJ. So your whole argument is based on a misreading (willful?) of my comments. But observe the hatred on the faces and lips of fundamentalist “Christians” who enter the public square and seek to impose their values on everyone and it’s clear they don’t know, or more probably don’t care about the teachings of the man the religion they claim to follow was named for. Jesus would forgive them, but he would disown their behavior. And yes, absolutely, people who, in thinking for themselves, have come to understand that religion grew out of fear and ignorance and owes its continued power to blind faith and the manipulation of religions’ followers by religious leaders who enjoy that power (see Catholic church), and that there is zero reliable evidence of any metaphysical realm, do tend to be thoughtful, even-tempered, and tolerant.
And Mike, the term “fundamentalism” has come to mean, maybe always has meant, reactionary religious folks with an “us vs. them” attitude. Here’s a good summary: http://vridar.wordpress.com/2007/06/29/10-characteristics-of-fundamentalism/ I have great respect for the Amish, Tibetan monks, or any group whose whole lives are immersed in their religion. But they don’t fall into the category of religious fundamentalists.