Taxes are complicated…
So, tell them in terms they might understand, like beer drinking.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the
arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ’Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.
Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,’declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’
‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’
‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’
‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine
sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may
not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
Thanks Houizi
Thanks, Houizi. Now throw in the other people at the bar who will complain that they are being discriminated against because they don’t drink beer and aren’t getting any discount.
its been on the web for a while and its soo true
Wow, I didn’t know that poor people didn’t have any taxes! That’s a pretty awesome story!
the rich pay almost half of the tax in the U.S.
Unless you are talking about the French revolution, what is the real-world equivalent to the beating up of the tenth person? I also feel like moving assets offshore is more involved than simply not showing up to a bar. Not to mention, many people already do this to avoid taxation. Will lower tax rates encourage them to move assets back after the fact? I am skeptical.
Or: There are 10 guys in the bar and the bartender has 100 bottles beer. The single richest guy gets 98 of bottles while the other 9 guys share the 2 remaining bottles.
Yep–and too many people do not understand this.
And isn’t something like this starting to play out in New York city? About 10% of the population of that city pays about 90% of the taxes; now the city wants to tax these rich people even more. Well, what happens if these people start moving out of the city?
@Infidel, and rightfully so considering that…
THE RICHEST 1 (ONE) PERCENT OF AMERICANS possess more wealth than
THE COMBINED WEALTH OF THE BOTTOM 90 (NINETY) PERCENT.
So it only makes sense that the rich should be paying the major share of taxes being that they own more than the rest of us, you included, That is unless you like redistributing your wealth to the top.
With great privilege comes great responsibility.
Sander,
My new found friend. One of the problems is that much of what that 1% owns includes media of any and all form. They throw the Olbermanns and the O’Reillys and their ilk at us to cause us to fight amongst ourselves. And they are also able to manipulate about half the people in this country to vote for things that hurt themselves . Libs say the media is controlled by conservatives, conservatives say it’s controlled by liberals. What we should all be concerned with is net neutrality, which if Big Media gets its way, would seriously curb sites like…Bits & Pieces.
Sander I do have to point out that there is a difference between owning and earning. This is why limousine liberals have no problem with high taxes it doesn’t effect them, it only effects those that actually earn money. Guys like Michael Moore earn very little compared to the millions they do own. Raising taxes just simply screws over the high earners not the those 1% you (not me) want to screw.
Sander what about the vast amount of people that pay NOTHING,yet they live off Government welfare, yes thats our tax money at work.I would rather redistribute the wealth at the top instead of giving it to some P.O.S that lives off welfare because they are a “victim” or some other P.O.S that just milks the Governement for everything SCREW THEM
isiah – That’s the smartest thing you’ve said since I can remember.
Tim – The tax issue is already playing out in California. The net population has decreased, especially among the highest earners.
Oh and don’t forget “O” and his promise to reduce taxes for 95% of folks, even though 50% don’t pay anything now. That’s called “Voodoo economics.”
I love this place!
But I think we’re gonna need more than one day for the BigAss BBQ.
Don’t forget, the rich guy drinks good beer, the middle guys drink cheap beer, and the 4 or 5 lowest people drink dirty dishwater.
You can’t make a comparison like this and suggest that the rich and poor get the same rights and privileges, while the rich are the only ones who pay for it.
Have anyone consider how that rich man got to be rich? Maybe started at the bottom and moved up, like with the majority of rich people in US. So those rich people know already what it was to be poor, but they did not bitch and complained and asked the govt for a hand out, they worked they way up. Now that they are up there their reward: PAY HIGHER TAXES. And is true, less than 10% of Americans pay for about 90% of the taxes in this Country. SHouldn’t they get a bigger relief when there area tax cuts?
JLG
“What the Health Care Bill Actually Says” by John David Lewis, professor in Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Duke University.
HR 3200–‘America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009’ –Pages 197-198, SEC. 441. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS ‘SEC. 59C. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS,” Here’s the evaluation of what it says: “1. This bill amends the Internal Revenue Code. 2. Tax surcharges are levied on those with the highest incomes. 3. The plan manipulates the tax code to redistribute their wealth. 4. Successful business owners will bear the highest cost of this plan.” ( http://www.classicalideals.com/HR3200.htm )
Every business owner that I know (and I know quite a few) works or has worked harder than any employee they’ve ever had under them. Don’t forget…in a small business, that “high income individual” is the one who signs your paycheck and I guarantee that every one of the ones I know put in a LOT more than the 40-hour week that his employees do…Many of the small-business owners I work with work 60-80 hour weeks. If the employees are unhappy that the boss has a higher income and perks, this is America…At least for now, it’s still possible to go out and start your own business and live that “cushy” life too. And every frikking one of the business owners I know has actually helped an ambitious employee get a start in a fledgling business.
Small business in the US employs half of the private-sector employees and has generated 60-80% of NEW jobs annually over the last decade (U.S. SBA Office of Advocacy Frequently Asked Questions, 2008). And these are the people that this president wants to hurt. When will he get a clue and stop sabotaging the economy by trying to hurt the very people that grow the economy?
DJ – to best sum up what’s happening was on a bumper sticker I saw. It had a symbol of Obama’s and said “Because everyone deserves what you worked so hard for”
I kind of like the idea of a flat tax: you send in, say, 10% of what you make in income and interest–I do not care how much you make, you send in 10%. Someone would have to do the math, but that might give the gov’t more than they get now. Of course, the tax accountants would be out of jobs.
Actually Infi, the top 5% of income earners pay 53% of all taxes in the US. The top 10% pay 65% of taxes, and the top 50% pay 96% of taxes. This means that the bottom 50% of US tax payers pay only 4% of the taxes in the US.
I know that I went through a difficult period financially a few years ago when I went from making $100K/year to making only $30K/year. for 2 years, I actually got MORE money back from my tax return than I PAID in taxes! This is criminal! Why should I be PAID by the government just because I didn’t earn that much? This is socialism! I don’t think it was fair for people who work hard to make it big (and yes, the rich DO work hard!)to pay me for doing nothing. Thank God I’m getting back on my feet again!
Actually, Paul in Boca, The media IS controlled primarily by liberals. independent surveys prove consistently that approximately 85% of those reporting news in the major media outlets (TV, magazines and newspapers) vote democrat and support liberal issues. The only major media outlet where there appears to be a conservative majority is talk radio. For God’s sake, the media carried Obama into office. How many stories about his past, his associations, and his record went unreported by the major media outlets.
DJ: God bless you! Business owners and most of the filthy rich work harder than most of us would be willing to work. Donald Trump wakes up at 4:00 am and works until 1:00 am. Most people who are filthy rich are that way because THEY WORKED FOR IT!!! With the exception of those like Ted Kennedy who inherited their money and have done nothing to deserve it, most of the rich would put us to shame with their work ethic.
Sander: Here is an example of why your logic is flawed:
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.
As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
The scores never increased as bickering,blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed..
KH: here is the flaw to your argument. You are assuming there are just 100 bottles of beer. In a free market economy, there is not one big pie that must be divided equally amongst all the people. In a free market economy, NEW pies are created every day and the share of pie increases for all. If you don’t like your share of pie given to you by your chef, you are free to go to another chef or, better yet, you have the option of becoming a chef yourself and making your own damned pie! What a great country we live in!
Sorry! I got a little long winded tonight! This is your fault for posting something political Jonco!
My logic is flawed? I simply stated a fact that the top 1% owns more wealth than the bottom 90% combined. How is that flawed?
Your logic is the flawed one. Where in the world did you get that Obama wanted to make it so that everyone made the exact same amount of money no matter how hard they worked (everyone got the same grade)? Your basic premise is completely flawed to begin with which renders your argument pointless.
It’s ok though. You can live in your fear-filled world where Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, et al make tens of millions of dollars scaring you while I’ll live in my world where I believe America can be great once again, where the middle class can actually afford to have a good life before and during retirement.
Seems like a whole lot of people forgot the American principle of “United we stand, divided we fall”.
This is not even wrong.
82% of all statistics are made up anyway. You people are 42% not likely to be trusted in 89% of all situations.
GObama!
DJ,
I’m probably too late to the game with this, but here it goes, anyway. Let’s put numbers to your cut and paste from the site you quoted.
The IRS Code is ammended, you’re right, I agree.
Point one, 1% tax of AGI between $350 K and $500 K would result in an additional tax, at the top rate, of $5000 per year, or about $13.69 per day.
Point two, 1.5% additional tax on AGI between $500 K and $1 million. Again, at the top rate, an additional annual tax of $15K, or about $41.09 per day. The tricky part, perhaps, is the 5.4% tax on those making over a million.
Let me pick an example we can both relate to. Lebron James and Dwayne Wade currently each earn $15,779,912 per year. (Chime in B & P’ers, how many of you can relate to that? I sure as hell can’t.) Since the NBA season is 82 games, both of those dudes earn $192,437.95 per game. At an additional 5.4% tax rate, they will each have to fork over $852,115.25 for the year. That amount of additional taxes would be earned during the first 4.42 games of the season.
I completely agree with you that the small business owner pays an unfair burden of tax. I also think there is a simple way to fix this problem.
I’ll preface this by acknowledging that the US has one of the highest corporate tax rates on the planet. The kicker is that we have the most complex tax code around, which enables large corporations to write off most, if not all, of their taxable income.
Here’s my proposal. If you are truly a small business, i.e., one who employs a certain (low) number of people, and you also do a minimal (preferably no) amount of overseas business, then we figure out a fair tax rate on you. If you are a multi-national corporation who funnels your income, etc., overseas to avoid paying taxes, then we come up with a way to put the hammer to you.
Don’t ask me for specifics, there are tons of people out there much smarter than I who could figure out the details.
Remember, the Founding Fathers wanted for all of us “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” Don’t you agree that the “Life” part includes keeping us healthy?
Paul – You make some sense with your small business proposals. But where is that anywhere in the Democratic proposals? I still have a hard time with taking even more money from people who worked all their lives for it to better themselves, and sprinkling it on people who have no drive or ambition, who already likely receive entitlements and handouts for food, child care, education, housing, medical care, tax breaks etc., as well as use the roads, emergency services, public schools, public transportation, hospitals etc, all of which are funded by govts on fed, state, & local levels…which are run with the tax dollars of those hard working folks again. (Not to mention the fact that citizens of other countries, here illegally, are to receive the same benefits as American citizens under these plans.)
LaBron got what he could get. He’s not taking anything from the poor. You’re worth whatever someone else is willing to pay you. And I’ll bet his tax bill is pretty awesome already. I HATE the salaries in sports (Why does everybody use sports and Wall St as examples, but never Hollywood and the entertainment industries??). Sure I wish nurses, teachers, cops and firefighters, floor layers and wine reps made more. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Without his talent and drive and grueling hard work since he was a little kid, LaBron could be working 3rd shift at McD’s. But if he was, and wasn’t earning that $15.8 million paycheck, I–or my poor neighbor–would be no better off than I am now. It’s not a pie with a finite number of pieces. Maybe I could afford to go to a game or two, but then again, anybody can listen to it on the radio for free. You do what you can with what you’ve got. Some of my friends have a season ticket package, I’ve got a radio. And I’m just fine with that. If I want to go to a game, I”ll have to work a few extra hours or do without some other treat. It’s nobody else’s responsibility to make sure that I get there.
As far as people figuring out the details, it seems more like ‘the people’ are being shut out of the traditional give and take, the negotiating and bantering back and forth and the push and pull and legislating and building programs in bits and pieces from both sides. We are told that the (over) half of the population that are against O’s programs “aren’t representative” and don’t deserve to be heard. When a constituent read directly from the House bill, a congressman said she was lying. Some town hall meetings in Virginia are by invitation only. Helen Thomas herself accused the Obama administration of selecting and prescreening the ‘spontaneous’ questions. I was listening to a Dennis Kucinich town hall meeting on WTAM Radio out of Cleveland and he cut off calm respectful people asking intelligent questions with “Thanks for your comment, now let’s move on to our next caller.” Look at what the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbwND52rrw . The President and the Sec’y of HHS have admitted they don’t know what’s in the bill, yet they push it. Why are Republican congressmen and the ‘little people’ in fly-over country actually reading the bill, but Democrat congressmen aren’t? Something this big and expensive and far-reaching, that will change the way we do things forever, shouldn’t be rushed and forced down our throats, with “deadlines” to boot.
As far as the “Life” part…how about the pursuit of Life by the unborn, nearly born, and just born…did Obama support their rights in the Illinois statehouse? How about as we near the end of Life, given what you’ve read in the House bills?
You quoted Tom Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence. Some other Jefferson quotes–
“And to preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude.”
“That government is best which governs least.”
“I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labour of the industrious.”
“Never spend your money before you have it.”
“Whenever a man has cast a longing eye on offices, a rottenness begins in his conduct.”
Some other Jefferson quotes:
“Jane, you’re playing a game you never can win, girl”
“We built this city on rock and roll”
“One pill makes you happy…”
DJ, no one read the Patriot Act that was shoved down our throats a month after 9/11. No one read the bailout that was shoved down our throats a month or so before the elections. I imagine if we had the time and inclination we could go round and round in circles, and at the end of the day, we would both be dizzy.
Maffu, how about this one:
Look what’s happening out in the streets
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Hey I’m dancing down the streets
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Ain’t it amazing all the people I meet
Got a revolution Got to revolution
One generation got old
One generation got soul
This generation got no destination to hold
Pick up the cry
Hey now it’s time for you and me
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Come on now we’re marching to the sea
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Who will take it from you
We will and who are we
We are volunteers of America
Paul – You are a oner. A liberal who still knows his Jefferson Airplane/Starship. I still have my Starship t-shirt from back in the day.
Richard, what’s an “oner”?